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scu04	The Santa Clara on Rahon		Lead	[-]
Posts: 89 04/03/09 06:49:16	Tags : None The Santa Clara on Rahon Few quick takes... -Rahon clearly wanted to play the #1 or #2. - I can't believe Rahon thought the school would pay for his tuition during Spring Quarter. It would be no different than a player deciding to transfer over Christmas break and then deciding to still go to school during the second semester and have the school cover it. Last Edited By: scu04 04/03/09 07:00:46. Edited 2 times.
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jcardoza77	Didn't want to Play the 3	#1	[url]	[-]
Posts: 463 04/03/09 07:21:00 Moderator	What we've learned: 1. Rahon didn't want to play the 3 spot because he felt he could be a better at the point or the two guard. As we've discussed before, he is better at the 2 than at the 3, but Foster earned the starting shooting guard spot. Rahon is saying in essense he would be better than Foster at the shooting guard position. He is not quick enough to defend point guards and Foster is better than he is at the 2. I think bronco81's thoughts re: Rahon being selfish are spot on; 2. Rather than talking to K2 first, he created and crossed his Rubicon by e-mail and calling the newspaper to announce his departure. 3. It still a massive loss to the program talent wise, but I'm not feeling as bad about his departure as I did before I read the article.
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tripbill		#2	[url]	[-]
Posts: 140 04/03/09 08:15:12	I'm not surprised by the "misled" part in recruiting. A bit of it happens with every recruit but knowing a HS coach who Keating tried to recruit one of his players, KK is one of the worst of saying anything.
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bronco93		#3	[url]	[-]
Posts: 35 04/03/09 10:10:32	So where exactly was Rahon misled? Was he promised he would play the point? I didn't see any evidence that he was capable of doing that on a full-time basis this season. Was he promised the shooting guard spot? Foster clearly won that role. What's so bad about playing the three guard with a green light to shoot? If you want another position, talk to the coach, not the newspaper ... and EARN it. This is like a bad divorce - he said / she said. I really don't know what to believe. But Rahon's whole How-Could-a-Jesuit-School-do-this-to-me whine sticks in my craw. He quit the team. He quit the school. Don't try to paint it like, I just wanted permission to talk to other teams. If you don't keep your commitment to the school, don't expect the school to keep its commitment to you in terms of a free ride. Good luck getting the same quality education at San Diego State. Oh, and Rahon at Georgetown? I just don't seem him surviving among the big boys in the Big East. Maybe they'll find a nice spot on the bench for him.
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TheWeave		#4	[url]	[-]
Posts: 49 04/03/09 10:47:09	Wow...we've got our own little Jay Cutler story. I think it sucks that he is leaving, and hate to see this ugly scene but a) it wasn't as if he was NBA-bound (I think) as a 1 or 2, and b) what division I program doesn't have to change plans in midstream based upon the kids they eventually wind up with or are healthy at one point or another. At some point it's a gamble right? You recruit a few 2's to fill a need and are feeling pressure, not sure which will commit, so you throw out a couple of offers at the same time and boom, you've got two 2's. On a larger scale, I remember a year SCU not so long ago got caught with it's pants down because too many freshman elected to attend. Total anomaly. It was a bit cozy in the COZY8 motel that year. Same thing could have happended here, I don't know, I'm not a recruiting expert. Now, the fact that he went to the "media" first demonstrates a maturity issue, a relationship breakdown (which might be something to discuss...is there something else festering in him about the progam?), or that someone else is talking in his ear. This incident isn't without precedence at SCU. Trip back to late 80's... (apologies if i put this in the boards already)...and you'll find Osei Appiah. Lots of what was behind his motivation to transfer before his senior year is the subject of fodder. Nebraska, with his buddy Tony Farmer (SJS), was the target I believe. But he went to CW and indicated he wanted to transfer. SCU released him. Then the transfer didn't happen. Osei wanted to come back. At that point CW basically said, sorry, but we don't want to be your back-up plan. I don't know about his spring semester (i think this all went down well after the break), but he lost the scholli for his senior year. Oops.
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bronco81	Wow. This really confirms what I thought about Rahon	#5	[url]	[-]
Posts: 4 04/03/09 16:59:40	This article really speaks volumes about Rahon's character. His moves seem extremely selfish. It just shows that he knew he would never be able take over the starting roles of the positions he wanted to play, so he "needed" to transfer. From what I can tell, he truly believes he beat out Foster for the starting job and he wasn't given his proper dues. Unfortunately, we all know this isn't true. I really do not know who is speaking into his ears about this matter (or maybe even his potential future in basketball), but it really seems that he truly does think he is more talented than he really is. The most interesting thing I saw in the article was the fact that James could not even speak to Coach Keating face-to-face, and had his father call Coach Keating on the phone over spring break to actually tell him that he is transferring (even when they had a meeting a few days prior to it!). This really does show many things about James' character. Honestly, to me, this shows a huge lack in mental toughness. A really interesting followup article would be to interview John Bryant or Kevin Foster (or anyone on the team, for that matter) and see how they feel about all this. It would be quite interesting to see how they felt/feel about the whole situation. I wouldn't be surprised if they clashed/had quarrels with Rahon throughout the season. I guess its time to just move forward from this whole ordeal. Go broncos! -bronco81 Last Edited By: bronco81 04/03/09 17:05:19. Edited 3 times.
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SCU85	How does this article confirm anything?	#6	[url]	[-]
Posts: 198 04/03/09 21:57:26	I don't think this article confirms Rahon to be a selfish player. The only thing this article confirms is that Rahon was extremely unhappy within the program. Why? None of us were privy to what Rahon was told when he was recruited so I don't think this article points to anything that would make me want to call him selfish. Maybe he was told, "You have interest and offers from Pac-10 teams but if you come to SCU you will start immediately at the 2 guard position". If I'm him and his Dad, I might be upset if that scenario doesn't play out. All the posts so far, have indicated that Foster somehow showed himself to be a superior 2 guard. How have you all come to the conclusion? I watched a lot of games this year and I'm looking at the stats right now. The only thing Foster seems to have done better is shoot more often. Their stats are both good and very similar. I might make the case that Rahon's unhappiness comes from the difference in the way Keating treated Foster and Bryant compared to the rest of the team. Go back and watch any game and you will see that Foster and Bryant (understandably so) had a much longer leash than any other player on the team. If Rahon, Tras or Dowdell made 1 mistake, they would be yanked from the game. In fairness, Foster was forced to play out of position so the coaches were probably forced to be more tolerant of his mistakes. However, if I'm Rahon, I would probably get really frustrated to see them tolerate Fosters' mistakes but not mine. I don't know the proper protocol when a player announces that he is leaving the program but it does look like we are being inconsistent. When Zimmerman wanted out, we wouldn't release him from his scholarship but now that Rahon wants to finish his Freshmen year, we are saying you're no longer on scholarship. The Athletic Department might want to tighten up their policy on this issue since it appears it will be an ongoing occurrence for years to come. My personal feeling would be, we gave him a Basketball Scholarship, he played 1 year of basketball we should give him 1 full year of the scholarship. As far as Bronco81's analysis that Rahon was selfish because B-81 was able to read Rahon's facial expressions during a specific play, I would have to say you've been watching too many episodes of The Mentalist. Most plays are designed to have multiple options. It would not make sense to have a play where Rahon is supposed to hand the ball to Foster every single time. I, for one, was really looking forward to watching Foster and Rahon grow together. I'm bummed that it's not going to happen. Bashing Rahon is not going to make me feel any better but if it helps you out, bash away.
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jcardoza77	The interview confirms nothing but suggests quite a bit	#7	[url]	[-]
Posts: 465 04/03/09 23:22:06 Moderator	I watched a quite a few games too, and I think Foster was a better player. His shooting percentage declined as he continued to handle the ball and and was forced to create more of his own shots (which he also did better than Rahon and is not to say that he didn't force a few more than he should have), but he appeared to have a quicker, tighter release than Rahon, & could put the ball on the floor and go to the hoop better than Rahon. As evidenced by playing the point, he had a better handle, & was quicker down the floor with the ball. Neither Rahon nor Foster would be confused with young Gary Payton, but when he was making an effort at defense, Foster seemed to have better lateral movement and generally stayed in front his man better than Rahon, and he was guarding quicker players. Defensive stats can be misleading, but Foster had 42 steals to Rahon's 16 and 6 blocks to Rahon's 0. And I'm not saying Rahon wasn't and isn't a good player, but when he was healthy was getting 30 minutes a game and a green light to shoot. The team was better with both of them on the floor, but that wasn't as important to him as playing the position he wanted to play. Someone who was more productive was playing that position and he certainly wasn't going to play the point, so he left. That doesn't sound like to a team player. I was also looking forward to them improving and with the other freshmen and recruits, turning the program around. I'm disappointed he's leaving, but based on his own words, his reasons to leave left a lot to be desired. BTW, while this has been a contentious discussion on the board, I can't think of one that has been more thoughtfully discussed. I've really enjoyed reading every ones insights.
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scu04	My Take	#8	[url]	[-]
Posts: 90 04/04/09 00:05:25	Someone might want to let Rahon know that Georgetown is also a Jesuit University…. I do not really see the inconsistency between Zimmermann and Rahon's situation. My understanding of Zimmermann leaving is that he was allowed to transfer to any school except Arizona State or Stanford (because former SCU coaches were there) . If Zimmermann went to either of those two schools he would have to spend a year at JUCO before enrolling. Like Rahon, he would have been able to go to any other school and sit out a year while attending that school before becoming eligible to play. Additionally, I will stick to my belief that a player who decides he no longer wants to be a part of a program before the start of an academic quarter should not have his education paid for by the school. As for comparing Foster and Rahon, Foster's ability to create off the dribble sets him apart. Rahon was certainly capable of doing some of this but it was not against the other team's best defender on a regular basis. Rahon emerged as a valuable weapon in the second half of the season but opposing teams were most focused on stopping Foster. Former NBA Coach Eric Mussleman said in his blog "SCU freshman Kevin Foster was impressive creating his own shot off the dribble. Of the first two nights (of the WCC Tournament), Foster was the best pro prospect, but was turnover prone vs traps and must improve as a point guard." (I think most on this board would agree.) Earlier he wrote "As for the game, Santa Clara's freshman guard Kevin Foster really put on a show. The 6-2 Foster is one of the most talented freshmen on the West Coast and it will be interesting to see if he ends up on the NBA radar as he develops as a player. He scored 26 points on 9-12 shooting against a good St. Mary's team." At the end of the day, the two shared many of the same strengths (shooting and scoring) and weaknesses (not true PGs and needing to improve on defense) but Foster has a little more athleticism and a quicker release that allows him to create his own shot more consistently. His performance in both St. Mary's games illustrated that he has a star quality about him. Rahon did not do himself any favors talking to the student newspaper. He was more sympathetic with his original "program was not a good fit" comment. Perhaps Keating over promised, but people are going to have a hard time believing Rahon was misled when he ended up being an All WCC Freshman performer with the trajectory to be an All Conference player next year. The frustrating part is… Would the 2 and 3 positions have been that different in their responsibilities next year? I imagine Robert Smith\Alexander would bring the ball up and Foster and Rahon would play on the wings. On the offensive end at least, the 2 and 3 thing is probably just a number with that line-up. As others on the board have pointed out, plenty of shots and minutes to go around. Did Rahon not like Keating? Probably. But was he envious of Foster? Probably. Last Edited By: scu04 04/04/09 00:10:26. Edited 1 time.
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SCU85		#9	[url]	[-]
Posts: 199 04/04/09 12:18:11	I agree that this is a good discussion and I feel bad for being on the opposite side because I really like Foster's game. HOWEVER, I will disagree that he is measurably better than Rahon. Although they both played similar roles and they both played very well, I think they have some different strengths. I completely disagree that Foster is better at creating his own shot. Rahon has a skill that very few guards in college possess any more, the ability to hit the in-between shot. Most kids, like Foster, shoot 3's or go all the way to the basket. Rahon has a really nice ability to hit the runner and because of this, I would say his offensive game is every bit as strong as Fosters. (Notice I am not saying he is better than Foster, just different and equally good). I knew the subject of Foster's steals would come up and you really made my rebuttal for me, but I have always found that steals are one of the most misleading statistics of all. Foster reminded me of Harold Keelings first few years. He would get lazy and cheat on defense, this often times led to a steal but more often than not, it led to him getting beat. It wasn't a huge problem this year because Bryant was behind him to cover a lot of his mistakes. Next year could be a different story. I think that Foster has the potential to become a better defender than Rahon but I don't think he was this year.
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BroncoFan		#10	[url]	[-]
Posts: 136 04/04/09 14:25:49	Re: Rahon's skills on the court, it seemed to me that Foster was the better player overall throughout the season, but SCU85 makes very good points. That said, the way he handled this shows at least a dearth of brains in terms of not waiting until after spring break and into spring quarter to make his move, and at most, a lack of both brains, and guts with how he had his dad call with him. I'd imagine Keating might be an intimidating guy, but you'd think a collegiate athlete, especially one who obviously thinks so highly of himself and thinks he's on the up-and-up, would be able to handle that himself. Frosh or not. (And yes, I am a former SCU athlete who didn't stay on the team after freshman year, and I had no trouble handling things myself with the coach and my teammates when I left the team.) Contacting TSC so early, and as an individual, was also not a smart move and showed lack of tact.
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bronco81		#11	[url]	[-]
Posts: 5 04/04/09 17:33:08	SCU85 wrote: I agree that this is a good discussion and I feel bad for being on the opposite side because I really like Foster's game. HOWEVER, I will disagree that he is measurably better than Rahon. Although they both played similar roles and they both played very well, I think they have some different strengths. I completely disagree that Foster is better at creating his own shot. Rahon has a skill that very few guards in college possess any more, the ability to hit the in-between shot. Most kids, like Foster, shoot 3's or go all the way to the basket. Rahon has a really nice ability to hit the runner and because of this, I would say his offensive game is every bit as strong as Fosters. (Notice I am not saying he is better than Foster, just different and equally good). I knew the subject of Foster's steals would come up and you really made my rebuttal for me, but I have always found that steals are one of the most misleading statistics of all. Foster reminded me of Harold Keelings first few years. He would get lazy and cheat on defense, this often times led to a steal but more often than not, it led to him getting beat. It wasn't a huge problem this year because Bryant was behind him to cover a lot of his mistakes. Next year could be a different story. I think that Foster has the potential to become a better defender than Rahon but I don't think he was this year. I actually don't believe this is true. Kevin Foster showed an extremely good mid-range game throughout his freshman season. I remember countless floaters, pull-up jumpers, and jump stops in the lane for Foster. These are indications of a well-rounded mid-range game. Similarly, Kevin Foster has one of the quicker pull-up jumpers in college basketball. This can definitely be attributed to his quick release. I remember countless shot-fake to one dribble pull-ups inside the arc throughout the season (if I'm not mistaken, 12-17 foot jumpers are considered mid-range jumpers and are OUTSIDE the three point line, right?) If this is the only area in which you felt Rahon excelled over Foster, then your argument for Rahon being better in certain areas certainly isn't that good. Foster also took contact a lot better than James Rahon, and he definitely finished better around the basket and in the lane. I do agree that both players were subpar defensively throughout the season, but I do think Rahon got beat by his man of the dribble consistently more than Foster. What's interesting about this is that Foster would be the one guarding the quicker, more shifty guards too. Also, who remembers Rahon getting utterly manhandled by Landry Fields in the paint during the Stanford game? I do. It's interesting that you bring up statistics as evidence to show how Foster's and Rahon's are so "similar." These statistics really aren't valid. Honestly, most statistical comparisons aren't really that valid because they come from completely different contexts. If all analysts took basketball statistics as seriously as you have in this specific comparison, then John Bryant would be in a battle with Blake Griffin for the number 1 spot in the upcoming NBA draft because of their "similar" statistics. We all know this isn't true though because they played against different competition and the way they play their games are extremely different (and the means that the way in which they attain these "similar" statistics are completely different. ie: Griffin's athleticisms and strength vs. Big John's size and length) This is similar to Foster and Rahon. I believe Kevin Foster consistently took harder shots that Rahon would never be able to get off in a game. Similarly, Foster consistently did it against the opposing team's best perimeter defender. Fosters shots would inevitably be harder because the defense was more concentrated on him. Essentially, it came down to Foster's ability to just "make plays" and take what was given to him. Rahon did not really show much "play making" ability throughout the season. His points mostly came off of Keating's sets. Because of this, though their statistics are "similar," they are actually completely different because of context. Don't get me wrong; Rahon is a good college player on this mid-major level and will be good in another system oriented offense. However, as of right now, he is definitely less talented than Foster, and he definitely has less upside than Foster in terms of potential (which will determine their futures as professional basketball prospects). I'll leave you with a very famous quote on statistics: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -Mark Twain Go broncos! -Bronco81 Last Edited By: bronco81 04/04/09 20:06:42. Edited 3 times.
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gobroncs		#12	[url]	[-]
Posts: 249 04/05/09 22:19:24	My thought on just now reading this article and this thread: 1) nice piece of reporting by a kid named Justin Phan at TSC. 2) Rahon seems immature for myriad reasons mentioned in previous posts (talking to the media too early, complaining about his position when he played a boatload of minutes and got to shoot a ton and made all-conference, having his dad call the coach for him, etc.), but I think about all the stupid things I did when I was 18 or 19 years old and in that light it doesn't seem so bad. 3) I don't know the protocol at all but we ought to pay the kids tuition for another quarter. Seems to me he earned that with all those hours he put in representing the school from October-March. 4) That's a weak ass list of schools he's talking about transferring to. I hope for him Georgetown works out because SDSU and UCSB aren't exactly upgrades. 5) I'm not sure of the relevance of the Foster vs. Rahon comparisons are but to me Foster was the materially better player. He's going to look even better next year when he is not out of position (playing the 1) half the year. KK maybe gave Foster a bit of free reign but he was hardly mistake prone and again, clearly playing out of position the 2nd half of the year. 6) Rahon playing the 3 or 2 seemed proper. It didn't look to me like he had PG skills. I don't get this part at all. He seems a bit delusional about this. 7) I think there's something more to this. Keating being a jerk to the players is my guess though I admit that seems a bit less likely than before. as jcardoza77 said, great thread.
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tripbill		#13	[url]	[-]
Posts: 141 04/06/09 10:09:42	Bronco 81 - You statistics logic isn't flying with me. Rahon and Foster play on the same team, in the same system, for the same coach, against the same comptetion. It's pretty close. Trying to compare that to Bryant vs. Griffin has nothing to do with what SCU85 was doing. You can say they played different positions, one had to create his own more often which altered his stats, etc - but trying to compare what he was looking at to Bryant & Griffin isn't fair. And someone earlier stated perhaps Rahon was told he'd be the starting 2 guard if he came to Santa Clara. Who knows what he was told? None of us. But from what I know of KK's recruting I'd tend to think it was something along those lines and more.
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The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/03/09 06:49:16	scu04
Didn't want to Play the 3	04/03/09 07:21:00	jcardoza77
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/03/09 08:15:12	tripbill
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/03/09 10:10:32	bronco93
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/03/09 10:47:09	TheWeave
Wow. This really confirms what I thought about Rahon	04/03/09 16:59:40	bronco81
How does this article confirm anything?	04/03/09 21:57:26	SCU85
The interview confirms nothing but suggests quite a bit	04/03/09 23:22:06	jcardoza77
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/04/09 12:18:11	SCU85
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/04/09 17:33:08	bronco81
My Take	04/04/09 00:05:25	scu04
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/04/09 14:25:49	BroncoFan
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/05/09 22:19:24	gobroncs
Re: The Santa Clara on Rahon	04/06/09 10:09:42	tripbill